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Topic: Will the English Speaking World Lose Control of English? Should We Care?  (Read 621 times)
Adam
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« on: January 13, 2010, 01:21:02 PM »

I have no clear idea of what "Standard Written English" might be, and it's causing me some anxiety.  Luckily, some Lexicographers are saying I don't need to worry. (correct grammar?)

"This Is English, Rules Are Optional" (via NYT)

Quote
what we now think of as the English-speaking world will eventually lose its effective control of the English language.”

Should we really bother, especially in Literary Fiction, with Standard English?  Honest question.
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The
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 06:34:44 PM »

There is value in linguistic standards - too often what passes as innovation or evolution is simply caused by laziness or ignorance. Stylistic departures from standards can work quite naturally in fictional narratives. In non-fiction, it's probably more important to have standards to adhere to.

The worst offender in the degeneration of English is perhaps the business world, ultimately because of what they use it for - persuasion and obfuscation. Consequently, their influence it pushing language away from clarity and meaningfulness. Government follows a similar path, of course.

I do take issue with his comment that "to mangle the rules of grammar, you first have to know the rules" - that's patently false. Most people today make grammatical errors because they were never taught grammar at all, but picked it up piecemeal, and badly, from pop culture.
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Leanne
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 01:15:02 PM »

There is value in linguistic standards - too often what passes as innovation or evolution is simply caused by laziness or ignorance. Stylistic departures from standards can work quite naturally in fictional narratives. In non-fiction, it's probably more important to have standards to adhere to.

I agree, there is definitely value in linguistic standards.  I don't think we're losing them so much as relaxing them, thanks to our increased exposure to people and groups and means of communication that we didn't have in previous generations. 

In my Syntax class last quarter, I was shocked at how often we had disagreement as to whether sentences were and were not grammatical, and I mean that in the linguistic sense (is a valid utterance) rather than the prescriptive sense. 

The worst offender in the degeneration of English is perhaps the business world, ultimately because of what they use it for - persuasion and obfuscation. Consequently, their influence it pushing language away from clarity and meaningfulness. Government follows a similar path, of course.


This is not new, though.  Propaganda, whether it be business or governmental, has been around, and hasn't had a substantial change in our linguistic standards.  People have been using the same style guides, with minor changes, for the past hundred or so years.  It's only now they're whining that they're no longer useful.  It's not the business or governmental tactics that have changed.. it's something else! 

I do take issue with his comment that "to mangle the rules of grammar, you first have to know the rules" - that's patently false. Most people today make grammatical errors because they were never taught grammar at all, but picked it up piecemeal, and badly, from pop culture.

You're speaking prescriptively.  We all, internally, know the "rules" of grammar, or else we'd never make ourselves understood!   Smiley

I blame this on the education system, as you seem to, too.  They haven't been able to make grammar an interesting topic, it fell out of fashion, and now is not taught, etc, but I also think there is a sociological aspect to it, too.  People rebelling against the "rules" authority dictates, or the higher social class insists on.  Ebonics is an extreme example of this, and although it may have grown out of a pidgin, it's continued use that transcends geographical boundaries is proof of its sociological basis.  I actually like ebonics - it's interesting, quirky, and I don't at all blame it for the downfall of English.  What I do blame is the <broken record> Internet  </broken record> and the fact that we do so much of our communication in text form. 

As a tech writer, I used to say "Writing is a privilege, not a right!" and by that I meant "Just because you're a native speaker and are able to express yourself through written word enough to be understood, you don't have the right to do professional copy because your language skills aren't up to snuff!"  Same thing I'd say to a singer, or a bad public speaker.  For some reason, it's easier to talk a bad singer out of singing, or a bad public speaker out of speaking, than it is to talk a bad writer out of writing.   Do we, as a society, think our right to express ourselves in the written word is a right?  Is it the lack of immediate feedback you get when writing vs speaking or singing?  Dunno.  Discuss! Smiley
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Adam
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2010, 11:51:34 AM »

If we don't have linguistic standards then we can't have real innovation, because we will never know what the boundaries will be of convention.  And likewise, we don't really have a clue as to value because we can't distinguish toads from stools.

Yes I agree the business world is hugely responsible, but the academic world has let Western Culture down by not explaining why grammar is important.  And colluding too much with the Market. 

I personally know my own vocabulary, spelling and grammar have slipped in the last few years.  Ultimately, I think it's because of a daily dose of spellcheck tools and emails.  So being in business also has an impact.  I really can't imagine what kids today will be like growing up on MMO's, Web, cell phone IM chat.

And yes I do think being able to communicate in writing is a right, inasmuch as the right to privacy and the right to information are slowly replacing other rights we used to value (i.e. freedom of religion).  It's a right because you only have to look at CN to see the alternative.  A Totalitarian Capitalist world I think would be worse than the Oligopolist Capitalist world we now have.
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Leanne
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 05:50:30 PM »

I personally know my own vocabulary, spelling and grammar have slipped in the last few years.  Ultimately, I think it's because of a daily dose of spellcheck tools and emails. 

I don't _use_ spellcheck, nor any automated grammar checker, and have learned, largely, to ignore the squiggly red lines on programs where I can't be bothered to turn them off, and my spelling's gone down the toilet, too (grammar not so much).  I find myself having to do a Web search to find the spellings I'm not certain of. 

I wonder if it is exposure to "unregulated" text, or atrophy due to lack of use (though, I'd be willing to wager that over the past 18 years, I've communicated more in written than in spoken forms)..

Theories?  Age?  Not being in school, spellings've been replaced by more interesting stuff?   Laziness? 
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